A Convo with Kofi About Sex

So I wrote this post yesterday about the passages in 1 Cor 6 regarding sexual immorality. 

Shortly there after the homie Kofi hit me up on chat with some challenging questions and the following conversation ensued. I believe that one of the ways that God speaks to us is through those around us. 

My man Kof makes some good points... Enjoy

Kofi: haha...interesting, I gotta run, be back later. I just wanted to ask several Questions: Did you look at all the other verses having to do with sex before coming to the conclusion of permissibility? Have you considered 1 Cor 6:12 in the context of Matthew 5:28, 1 Cor 7:9, and Job 31:1? What do you think it means that sex is never discussed in the Bible in a positive way before marriage? Have you truly searched your spirit man for not just wisdom but 'understanding' on some 1 Cor 2 stuff (before writing this particular piece)? How explicit would the writers have to be to convince people that sex before marriage is sin, and would that be practical? Would it be spiritual? If even thinking lustfully at a woman is sin, how could actual sex not be? Is the lack of definition of sexual immorality a call for us to get away from seeing sin through adherence to ' 'law' and really seeking God's spirit rather than our human intellect to decide how we should live or who we should we?

me: haha just saw your comments. Let me read through them..

Did I look at all of the scriptures no. but I'm not even convinced that "fornication" is sex outside of marriage.

Regarding Matt: 5:28 adultery, by definition, implies that one has already entered into the marriage bond. Even so that is an impossible standard. I'm not sure if you read my entire post but I do submit to the fact that Paul is right about it being bad, assuming that he is talking about sex outside of marriage.

Regarding 1 Cor 7:9... look at verse 6 for context.. “I say this as a concession, not as a command.”

In both chapter 6 and 7 he is clear that this is not a command.

He is also clear in saying that this is wise and the best way to go... and I agree with him.

Job: 31:1: Wasn't Job married? Also this is not part of the Laws of Moses. I'm certain of that. It is a New Testament thing.

I'd argue that sex isn't discussed at all in terms of it being before marriage. I've seen sex discussed in marriage, in adultery, and with prostitutes. It may very well be the case that folk really weren't having sex with women outside of marriage (unless they were prostitutes) because it was such a taboo.

I have searched for wisdom on this. And I readily accept that I could be wrong but I felt compelled to write this because I'm not the only person thinking about it. If having a dialog about it means that I come out as being the one that is flawed then I'm ok with that. But I didn't want to shy away from writing about it just because I have problems with it (I almost punked out).

I do think it would have been practical to mention it explicitly. The old law is explicit about not having sex with animals and homosexuality... why not be explicit about this? In the New Testament verse I mentioned in the blog, Mark 10... I can see someone using that as a rationale… but still it is in the context of divorce and marriage. I don't understand why the Bible is explicit about so many other general aspects of sex and not this one.

The part about seeing God's spirit... you've got me there

Maybe this really speaks to the sickness of our society. I do not believe that it is ideal for human beings to be unmarried into their 30s... at the time folk were getting married in their teens… big cultural changes have occurred... again I'm not saying this to explain away the situation... but maybe our society is so sick that the sexual part of obedience is that much more trying.

Let's discuss further.

Kofi returned

me: well you made the point that I made in the second half of my post

 In terms of the will of God and what the spirit says on the matter, which makes the definition of "fornication" kinda a moot point

Kofi: I want to go back to a couple of points you made

me: ok

Kofi: I’m interested in the definition of adultery

me: INTERESTING

Kofi: adultery, as I interpret it in the bible does not mean marriage. From our reading of the whole book its essential meaning has to do with faithfulness to God

me: see… now that is what I have heard about fornication

  never about adultery

  

Kofi: well going back to Matthew 5

  and lustfulness

me: fornication meaning not putting anything before God

  ok

  listening

Kofi: to me Matthew 5 is really getting at God wanting us to be free of a lustful mind

  that's why he doesn't break it down into specific sex acts

  because if we could sniff each others butts to fulfill lustful mental desires

  we would do it

  like "God didn’t say we couldn’t do this"

to me marriage is part of what justifies sexual gratification in Gods eyes

me: hmmm

Kofi: because going back to adultery, and faithfulness,

  these fleshly bodies

  aren’t ours

  they're his

  bought with his blood

with his spirit inserted into those who receive it

coming together in lust, lust in itself being a sin, to me is definitely sin

me: still here listening FYI

Kofi: Rather than breaking down specifics, he focuses on lust, because it is an affliction of the spirit, that deals with all of the physical acts associated with it

me: great point

Kofi: like if you kiss a girl on the mouth, like I'm feeling you, I love you, shoot I love the God in you

  not necessarily lust

whereas if you kiss someone and you're like, "dang I just want to knock the stuffin’ out that English muffin"

  its lust

me: hahahaah

  is it possible to knock the stuffin out the english muffin in a "i love the God in you" kind of way without being married?

  j/k kinda

Kofi: hahahahaha

me: hahahahaha

Kofi: well in marriage, presuming a whole lot of other factors outside of the bounds of this convo, God's cosigned on the union

  we got justification

  its like, right now

  I'm still a sinner

  I'm just justified

  by his grace

Sex without marriage is Sex without the grace covering

  does that make it fall short of being actual sin?

  I dont think so, because sex without lusting

  dont exist

me: damn you

Kofi: I was thinking the exact same thing

  lol

  {damn me}

me: hahahahahhaa

  thank you for being a great friend

Kofi: thank you brotha, unlike Wesley Snipes in New Jack City, "I am my brothas keeper" (trying to be)

me: hahahaha thanks man

I still don't follow you on the expansive definition on adultery...

  but I do understand you taking the leap on the lustful mind

  adultery or not

  That's where the Holy Spirit comes in... cause otherwise it's impossible.

  The lustful mind part

Kofi: Got you, I got my concept about adultery from verses like Jeremiah 9:1-3 and Hosea 7:1-5

in which he calls people adulterers, for being unfaithful to him. You know how there's that verse about a married person's priority is their spouses and a single person's is God's business? He seems to be saying you're never really single. You're either in covenant with him, or him and your spouse, either way, your heart, mind, and body belong to him first.

me: I don't read these verses the same way

why isn't calling them adulterers just one extra thing they are all doing wrong?

 yeah that's 1 Cor 7

Kofi: well in Hosea 7 he says they are "all" adulterers

me: yes

  he says all in Jeremiah too

  maybe they all were just sexin’ all kinds of prostitutes and scalawags

Kofi: maybe, I think they were bad

  but as bad as we are

  we aint that bad

  and our generation is pretty terrible

me: hahaha

  yeah that's real

he makes it sound like Sodom 10.0!

  all kinds of unsavory, skullduggerous pandemonium

Let's Talk About Sex

embrace by Egon Schiele

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"—but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh. "But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. – 1 Corinthians 6:12-17

Today’s Reading: Psalms 113-115; 1 Corinthians 6

Ok I’m gonna come right out and say it…

I don’t think sex outside marriage is a "sin".

I know that 99% of my Christian brothers and sisters will disagree with me here and to be honest I’m ok with that. Maybe I will receive a new understanding in the future and change sides on this one. I have two issues with it. 

First, what is “sexual immorality” anyway? I haven’t seen it explicitly defined as sex outside of marriage. In the last chapter it was used when discussing a man sleeping with his father’s wife. Now THAT is pretty darn immoral. I get that. But someone please help me with a scripture explicitly saying that sexual immorality (fornication) is sex outside of marriage. I will also accept an argument that seems to break that down by saying what can and cannot be done. Provide scriptures please.

Secondly, every time I have heard a sermon on the topic they reference these verses…

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. 1 Corinthians 6: 18-20

Okaaaaaaaaaaaay… I can dig that. 

But they never include these verses…

"Everything is permissible for me"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"—but I will not be mastered by anything. – 1 Corinthians 6:12

It’s from the same section of the same chapter! Context matters.

I have spent years thinking about this for obvious reasons. It’s not like I’m a virgin or anything. And call me a sinner if you want but good gracious, sex being a sin has never made sense to me.

But then I read the next few verses and I see the point that Paul is making here:

Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." – 1 Corinthians 6:16

The point here is that there is something more going on with sex than the physical. When we have sex with someone we are connecting on a deeper level than we realize. That person becomes a part of us and we become a part of them. You know each other in a way that cannot be articulated.

I don’t know if you have experienced this but let me test it out for you. Do you remember the last time you saw someone that you had sex with in the past but have not seen in a while? There is a familiarity there that is more intimate than what you feel when you see a long lost friend. In a deeper sense you know each other.

There is a soul tie.

You’ve shared a bond, whether it was for several years or just one night. The duration of the relationship may affect the intensity but it doesn’t change the fact that a connection is there. During sex we are at our most vulnerable. We open ourselves up to the other person in a way that doesn’t happen in any other kind of human interaction.

This is why Paul’s general point makes sense to me. Whether or not it is permissible is not really the point. The question is whether or not it is beneficial. If we have a lasting connection with everyone that we have ever had sex with, then how does this affect our future relationships? Are we bringing this baggage into our marriages?

Paul would say yes. And I’d have to agree… reluctantly.

I think this is something compelling to think about. Of course I believe in Grace and that these connections can be overcome but geez… we can’t front on these things being complicated. So I guess the fewer the connections the better.

And this gets us back to the original point… sex outside of marriage.

I do believe that not having sex outside of marriage is ideal in a profound way. But I also think it is permissible. However, like with everything we do, there are costs and benefits.

The question is, is it worth it?

That is not for me to tell you. But I think the argument for no sex before marriage very compelling. I’m not gonna sit here and promise you that I won’t do it. I’m no fool. But I do think it is an interesting discussion to have.

What do you think? Agreements, disagreements and comments are welcome as always. 




UPDATE:


This is what Jesus had to say about divorce... this is the best I've found on sex outside of marriage being no bueno.. but it refers to the bond of marriage... What about the time between leaving your folks and getting married? If you believe that divorce is not a sin, outside of it being caused by adultery, then how is premarital sex sin? Perhaps the change in our society of folks getting married later and living outside the home before marriage changes the game? Then again maybe not. Interesting stuff tho. 


Mark 10: 1-12