Sunday, October 24, 2010

A Convo with Kofi About Sex

So I wrote this post yesterday about the passages in 1 Cor 6 regarding sexual immorality. 

Shortly there after the homie Kofi hit me up on chat with some challenging questions and the following conversation ensued. I believe that one of the ways that God speaks to us is through those around us. 

My man Kof makes some good points... Enjoy

Kofi: haha...interesting, I gotta run, be back later. I just wanted to ask several Questions: Did you look at all the other verses having to do with sex before coming to the conclusion of permissibility? Have you considered 1 Cor 6:12 in the context of Matthew 5:28, 1 Cor 7:9, and Job 31:1? What do you think it means that sex is never discussed in the Bible in a positive way before marriage? Have you truly searched your spirit man for not just wisdom but 'understanding' on some 1 Cor 2 stuff (before writing this particular piece)? How explicit would the writers have to be to convince people that sex before marriage is sin, and would that be practical? Would it be spiritual? If even thinking lustfully at a woman is sin, how could actual sex not be? Is the lack of definition of sexual immorality a call for us to get away from seeing sin through adherence to ' 'law' and really seeking God's spirit rather than our human intellect to decide how we should live or who we should we?

me: haha just saw your comments. Let me read through them..

Did I look at all of the scriptures no. but I'm not even convinced that "fornication" is sex outside of marriage.

Regarding Matt: 5:28 adultery, by definition, implies that one has already entered into the marriage bond. Even so that is an impossible standard. I'm not sure if you read my entire post but I do submit to the fact that Paul is right about it being bad, assuming that he is talking about sex outside of marriage.

Regarding 1 Cor 7:9... look at verse 6 for context.. “I say this as a concession, not as a command.”
In both chapter 6 and 7 he is clear that this is not a command.
He is also clear in saying that this is wise and the best way to go... and I agree with him.

Job: 31:1: Wasn't Job married? Also this is not part of the Laws of Moses. I'm certain of that. It is a New Testament thing.

I'd argue that sex isn't discussed at all in terms of it being before marriage. I've seen sex discussed in marriage, in adultery, and with prostitutes. It may very well be the case that folk really weren't having sex with women outside of marriage (unless they were prostitutes) because it was such a taboo.

I have searched for wisdom on this. And I readily accept that I could be wrong but I felt compelled to write this because I'm not the only person thinking about it. If having a dialog about it means that I come out as being the one that is flawed then I'm ok with that. But I didn't want to shy away from writing about it just because I have problems with it (I almost punked out).

I do think it would have been practical to mention it explicitly. The old law is explicit about not having sex with animals and homosexuality... why not be explicit about this? In the New Testament verse I mentioned in the blog, Mark 10... I can see someone using that as a rationale… but still it is in the context of divorce and marriage. I don't understand why the Bible is explicit about so many other general aspects of sex and not this one.
The part about seeing God's spirit... you've got me there

Maybe this really speaks to the sickness of our society. I do not believe that it is ideal for human beings to be unmarried into their 30s... at the time folk were getting married in their teens… big cultural changes have occurred... again I'm not saying this to explain away the situation... but maybe our society is so sick that the sexual part of obedience is that much more trying.

Let's discuss further.

Kofi returned

me: well you made the point that I made in the second half of my post
 In terms of the will of God and what the spirit says on the matter, which makes the definition of "fornication" kinda a moot point

Kofi: I want to go back to a couple of points you made

me: ok

Kofi: I’m interested in the definition of adultery


Kofi: adultery, as I interpret it in the bible does not mean marriage. From our reading of the whole book its essential meaning has to do with faithfulness to God

me: see… now that is what I have heard about fornication
  never about adultery

Kofi: well going back to Matthew 5
  and lustfulness

me: fornication meaning not putting anything before God

Kofi: to me Matthew 5 is really getting at God wanting us to be free of a lustful mind
  that's why he doesn't break it down into specific sex acts
  because if we could sniff each others butts to fulfill lustful mental desires
  we would do it
  like "God didn’t say we couldn’t do this"
to me marriage is part of what justifies sexual gratification in Gods eyes

me: hmmm

Kofi: because going back to adultery, and faithfulness,
  these fleshly bodies
  aren’t ours
  they're his
  bought with his blood
with his spirit inserted into those who receive it
coming together in lust, lust in itself being a sin, to me is definitely sin

me: still here listening FYI

Kofi: Rather than breaking down specifics, he focuses on lust, because it is an affliction of the spirit, that deals with all of the physical acts associated with it

me: great point

Kofi: like if you kiss a girl on the mouth, like I'm feeling you, I love you, shoot I love the God in you
  not necessarily lust
whereas if you kiss someone and you're like, "dang I just want to knock the stuffin’ out that English muffin"
  its lust

me: hahahaah
  is it possible to knock the stuffin out the english muffin in a "i love the God in you" kind of way without being married?
  j/k kinda

Kofi: hahahahaha

me: hahahahaha

Kofi: well in marriage, presuming a whole lot of other factors outside of the bounds of this convo, God's cosigned on the union
  we got justification
  its like, right now
  I'm still a sinner
  I'm just justified
  by his grace
Sex without marriage is Sex without the grace covering
  does that make it fall short of being actual sin?
  I dont think so, because sex without lusting
  dont exist

me: damn you

Kofi: I was thinking the exact same thing
  {damn me}

me: hahahahahhaa
  thank you for being a great friend

Kofi: thank you brotha, unlike Wesley Snipes in New Jack City, "I am my brothas keeper" (trying to be)

me: hahahaha thanks man
I still don't follow you on the expansive definition on adultery...
  but I do understand you taking the leap on the lustful mind
  adultery or not
  That's where the Holy Spirit comes in... cause otherwise it's impossible.
  The lustful mind part

Kofi: Got you, I got my concept about adultery from verses like Jeremiah 9:1-3 and Hosea 7:1-5
in which he calls people adulterers, for being unfaithful to him. You know how there's that verse about a married person's priority is their spouses and a single person's is God's business? He seems to be saying you're never really single. You're either in covenant with him, or him and your spouse, either way, your heart, mind, and body belong to him first.

me: I don't read these verses the same way
why isn't calling them adulterers just one extra thing they are all doing wrong?
 yeah that's 1 Cor 7

Kofi: well in Hosea 7 he says they are "all" adulterers

me: yes
  he says all in Jeremiah too
  maybe they all were just sexin’ all kinds of prostitutes and scalawags

Kofi: maybe, I think they were bad
  but as bad as we are
  we aint that bad
  and our generation is pretty terrible

me: hahaha
  yeah that's real
he makes it sound like Sodom 10.0!
  all kinds of unsavory, skullduggerous pandemonium


  1. I really enjoyed this post. :)

    Clarence you are a hot mess. "is it possible to knock the stuffin out the english muffin in a "i love the God in you" kind of way without being married?"

    Much Love


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